What To Do After a Shooting: The First Five Minutes

Let's look specifically at what's gonna happen during that first five minutes. Now, there are a lot of people who spend a lot of time talking about this teaching about it, thinking about it, lecturing about it. And I think that the conventional wisdom has often, at least at the gun store level, the rhetoric on the gun range has always leaned towards, don't say anything. But I know as a former law enforcement officer, if I showed up on the scene to a shooting, there was all this chaos and people were hurt and ambulances, sirens, people screaming, people nervous, and especially if there are weapons involved. The last thing that I'm gonna be comfortable with is nobody saying anything. How do you recommend people handle that immediate aftermath of a critical incident? Well, there's two big considerations here. The first is don't get shot by the police when they show up, make sure that you don't have the gun in your hand. Uh that you've either put it back in your holster, you set it down. Uh Somehow the police don't show up and see you holding a gun in your hand. That could be really bad for you. Absolutely. It'd be pretty obvious that if you were a police officer showing up on the scene of a shooting without any other information, saw somebody with a gun in your hand. Well, you've just committed some crimes right there. At least the elements of a crime and from that police officer's perspective. So I agree with you 100% put the firearm back in the holster or maybe just in a safe, secure area after you've cleared it. If you don't have a holster convenient now, and then what happens? That kind of depends on what happens next. Kind of depends on how did the police get notified to begin with? Most people now carry cell phones. So you're probably gonna have made the call, you'll probably tell them, listen, I was just attacked by this guy. I had to shoot him. It was self defense. Uh, send the police, send an ambulance. No, I don't know if he's dead. Uh I'm described as 6 ft three blonde hair, uh, that kind of thing. And so now the police are coming and they're gonna be coming about as fast as they can safely get there, which means that they're gonna be kind of hyped up a little bit. Ok. So when they show up on the scene, things are not gonna be calm, cool and collected. Uh They're gonna be waving their guns around, they're gonna be yelling at you don't move, get down on the ground at that point, you just have to go along with it. Don't argue, don't say a word, just do what they tell you, right. Nothing good can come from trying to explain yourself at that exact moment, that crisis moment, correct. And it's likely that, that you will be technically detained. You may or may not be handcuffed at that time, but you're not free to leave, but you're also not under arrest either. And so during this critical time where you're detained, but not technically under arrest, then the police are gonna basically say, well, Rob, what happened here at that time? If you say officer, I'm not saying anything until my attorney gets here, then what that police officer is thinking, you know, this guy is guilty of something because that's what they hear all the time from guilty people, right? And the fact is like you said, most of us are going to be making this cell phone call ourselves. In fact, we train students to have that firearm in the ready position. Once they believe everything is safe, they use their offhand to make that call as maybe they're putting their firearm away. They're describing that the police officers just like you said, all those important elements that you had to defend yourself. Someone's been hurt, send an ambulance, maybe you've been hurt, explain that and that all important description because all the officer has to go by is who's wearing jeans and a tan shirt. Is that the good guy? And if the dispatcher puts that into his head and that makes it less likely that you're going to have a problem with the law enforcement officer when they get there and they start asking these questions, what's your advice of the important things that someone definitely should say or should offer up as information to the officer? Well, first realize that you, number one are the victim of a crime and you need to report that crime to the police. The police aren't going to know that you have been victimized and you're, you're, you're the victim of a crime. If you just simply say, I'm not saying a word. I want my attorney, they're gonna think that you're the suspect of the crime and the crime is murder. But instead if you say officer, I was just attacked by that man, there's his knife. I think that person saw what happened. Then the officer gets a much clearer picture that, yeah, there was a crime here before this guy had to use a gun for self defense. I think that's much more realistic. The idea that we're just gonna clam up and say nothing might sound good when we're typing on the internet or sitting at the gun range. But the reality is you're gonna be on the phone. There's such a thing as an excited utterance. Can you talk a little bit about that? Yeah, when you call up the dispatch and say I've just been shot or I've just been involved in a shooting, you know, that is admissible in court under the excited utterance exception to the hearsay rule. And so they could bring that into court and play it for the jury. The fact that you shot someone isn't gonna be a mystery to anybody. And so by saying nothing, you know, all you're doing is basically failing to report to the police, the crime that you were a victim of. Remember that under the law that we discussed, most statutes have in their or most states have in their statutes. The idea that if you are the victim of a serious violent felony, you may use self defense or you may use a gun for self defense. Uh, it would be called justifiable homicide. Consequently, if you don't say anything and the police simply turn their attention to you and what you did, you've given away half of your legal defense right there. Ok. So is there anything else that we need to say right away when the police first show up? Yeah. The first thing we need to do is to make sure that they know that you are injured. If in fact, you are physically assaulted, if you're pushed to the ground, make sure that they see that, see your dirty knees, uh if you're hit along the side of the head, have them take a look at the bruising. Uh And you may even end up having to take a picture a day or two later. Sure, because it may take time for that, that red mark or something else, but at least establishing not saying, oh, well, he only grabbed me, but instead, maybe he grabbed me and just let that stand in, in evidence as itself and, and also, uh, if there's any evidence at the scene that you think the police might overlook or might disappear, make sure that they know about that. Uh One of my first uh expert witness cases many years ago involved a shooting out on the street and the person that I was called in to help defend as an expert, uh he was being charged with murder. And when it was all said and done, the actual shooter's gun was found about two blocks away, it had disappeared from the scene before the police got there. And eventually when we found that out, and the only reason we found that out is because the reading the pathology reports, the weight of the bullet, the nine millimeter bullet that killed the guy was 90 grains. Now, you and I both know that's a 380 not a nine millimeter. And so the other, the other guy with the gun, the guy with the nine millimeter didn't shoot the guy that was dead. It was somebody on the street with a 380. And so once that was found out, uh they dropped the charges against the guy So sometimes you may actually be charged with a crime and the evidence that comes out through the process of the information you gave, maybe the witnesses, you identified. The other things that you said those critical moments right after the shooting can actually be what helps you get your charges dismissed if the thing actually ends up going to trial, I mean, you're not giving away any deep dark secrets here that are gonna get you in trouble later in court. Now, the fact that you point out to the police that the suspect's gun was thrown underneath the bush by one of his buddies, might that be very important to your legal defense. And of course, the idea that you also want to point out, hey, I think that person saw something, we're not gonna be afraid of bringing somebody else into it or getting somebody involved. We need to make sure that the police get a chance to talk to everybody who might have any information if we're in the right, that's eventually gonna come out and the more voices backing it up probably the better. Absolutely. And then lastly when you've done, explain to the police that you're the victim of a crime, uh, asking for medical assistance if you've been injured, pointing out the evidence, pointing out the witnesses, tell the police that, you know how serious this is officer. Uh, I would like to have legal counsel here before I continue my interview with you before I talk to you further, let them know that you're sincere that you're gonna help them, but you better have your attorney there now. Sure. We're certainly not recommending that someone doesn't seek legal counsel or someone doesn't have legal representation, especially in the fact they're arrested. Now, are we ready to talk about what happens at that point in a worst case scenario? Uh We certainly can. Yeah, if you're arrested and basically an arrest comes when you're not free to leave, and a reasonable person would believe that you have been arrested. Typically that will occur when an officer read you your Miranda rights, you have the right to remain silent, et cetera, et cetera. At that point, shut up. Don't say a word, asked to speak to your attorney. Tell the officers, I've got his number in my pocket. Can I call him? Uh They probably won't let you, they'll wait until you get to the police station. But you're, you know, you're basically protecting your right to, to remain silent. But I think that's an important distinction is it's up to the officer to initiate that, that next legal juncture to say at this point, I'm making you aware that anything you say can be used against you in a court of law or whatever the specific verbiage is in that jurisdiction. At that point, you're not the one standing there with your mouth shut saying I'm not going to talk to you. That's correct. And so after you're arrested, you'll be taken to the police station, you'll be booked. Uh, you may even be taken to the emergency room uh to get treatment for a wound or so, uh during this whole process, don't say anything about the incident to anyone, not the jailer who is booking and taking your fingerprints and ask, hey buddy, what did you do? Just say, say nothing. Ok, not the acute emergency room nurse who is acting all sorry for you. Uh Don't say a word, just continue on with the what you're doing and you end up being blocked. Uh Make sure your attorney gets there as quick as possible. And would it be fair to say that in today's cell phone? Blackberry PD A internet constantly connected world? It probably wouldn't be a good idea to broadcast to anybody that you don't need to speak to immediate family. Your lawyer that this incident even happened. Absolutely. Yeah, keep your mouth shut. Word will get out anyway. These people will probably find out about it anyway. So you don't have to tell them uh what you need to do is to, to keep your counsel close to your chest, so to speak. Uh talk to your attorney, perhaps talk to your spouse. Uh But don't be telling family members uh under the law, there's an exception to the hearsay rule also called the admission against self interest. And so if you get on the internet and say, you know, I shot this guy and I shot him a half a dozen times and, you know, he was falling to the ground after the first one. But, but I kept shooting, you know, that can be used against you because that's an admission against your own interest. And, uh, yeah, and that's gonna come back to haunt you. Sure. So once you've been arrested, then it does become very important to follow that more conventional wisdom of being very careful what you say, listen to your lawyer and maybe even only talk to your lawyer, right? And, and remember this advice is coming from the criminal defense bar and these attorneys, you know, God love them. You know, the fact is that they spend 99% of their time defending guilty people. If you're guilty of a crime, then don't say a word. You know, that's the time to shut up. But if you're an innocent person, if you didn't do anything wrong, don't act like a guilty person and hopefully you won't be treated like a guilty person. Now, I imagine once your lawyer gets there, we're gonna let him take control. He's gonna tell us what we need to do, what we need to say, where we need to say it and when we need to say it. But what other things should we keep in mind when we actually are waiting for our lawyer or when our lawyer arrives? Well, they'll probably put you in an interview room perhaps with or without your attorney there, there might even be a jailer there. Uh, don't say anything. Uh, even when you're talking to your attorney, make sure that you clear through your attorney before you talked about anything critical because that interview might interview room might not even be secure, then maybe still listening in. And while they couldn't use that against you in a court of law, what they can do is use what you said to start investigating, you know, some other fact of the case. Absolutely. And again, not to say you've done something wrong, just we don't want to say something. We don't want to have that utterance between ourselves and our attorney that's going to lead to someone looking in the wrong direction or getting the wrong impression. That's right. And then one last thing on that topic, the jails are full of jail, health snitches. Uh So don't talk to these guys, don't tell them what you did. And here's the deal, don't even talk to them because they can make up things, you know, they, they may want to be getting out of out of jail on their, their misdemeanor marijuana charge and they come, so they come to the prosecutor and say, hey, this guy told me XYZ and uh, I'll be happy to testify to that if you drop these charges. And so right, and just having that third person or even a jailer who says, yeah, you know, I did see him talking to that guy at the back of the cell. Um, sort of sets up a credibility for that being possible. Exactly. Let's talk about a situation that, that people may not think about the idea that if you're not arrested on scene, we should still probably be really careful about what we say just because we didn't get arrested that night. Doesn't mean we're completely out of concern as far as the incident. Yeah, if, if you're not arrested on the scene, you're, you've won half the battle because the momentum has been taken away from the police to push forward with, with the, with the prosecution. Uh, but that doesn't mean that you can't be prosecuted later. Uh The fact is that, uh there is no statute of limitations on murder. Uh You could be tried for murder 10 years after the fact if additional evidence came up that, uh that led the prosecutor to believe that this was a murder. So don't go talking about it. And then the other thing is you still have to deal with the civil trial, which I know that you wanna get into. Uh And so even if you're not arrested, even if you're not charged with the crime, if you start blathering away with it, uh, you're gonna end up losing civil trial because of what you said. Well, I know one of the things we recommend in training a lot for home defense scenarios is the idea that you're gonna have a script next to the phone where you're gonna describe to the dispatcher exactly where you are, what your address is, who you are. Uh Maybe some of the other things like description of clothing, some other prompts that we put right there next to the phone or next to the alarm panel so that people know exactly what to say in that rushed moment. So you're saying that somehow practicing or preparing ahead of time for the on the street situation is also a great idea, right? And this would basically come in in scenario based training but not go as far as having a script. Uh You would want to practice what you wanted to say, but I wouldn't say for instance, have a card in your wallet that had the five points to say about a shooting because that could be used by the prosecution to create in the minds of the jury that you intended to go out and get involved into a shooting. That's a great point because I've heard that advice brought up quite a bit. And when you think about it, now, it really is very different from a 911 call to report an emergency versus standing there talking to a police officer about something that we all hope we never actually have to deal with. Oh, wait a minute officer, let me whip out my card and tell you what I should tell you. I don't think it's a good idea. I agree.