Why Not to Use the Weaver Stance
Rob PincusDescription
For defensive shooting, there’s no question that a good athletic stance, generally squared off to the target, is the better way to go. One of the most important things in defensive shooting is recoil management, so you can fire fast follow-up shots and get the threat stopped quickly.
Yet Rob Pincus sees people coming to handgun training courses wanting to use bladed stances, upright stances, stances that might be great for precision shooting or might work in areas where you’re doing limited strings of fire, but aren’t good for rapid, multiple-shot strings of fire into the high center chest area.
Why Not the Weaver Stance?
Rob is on the range with Christina, who normally shoots with an athletic stance, but Rob coaches her into using a stance that is inappropriate for defensive shooting, the Weaver stance.
The Weaver stance was very popular in the past and there are controlled circumstances under which it works well, but for shooting rapid strings of fire into the torso of a threat, the Weaver stance has several failure points. Rob and Christina demonstrate this with some shooting drills using the Weaver stance first.
How It Looks
In the Weaver stance, the strong-side leg takes a step back and the shooter’s body is bladed toward the target. Driving both arms out causes a bend in the support-side elbow, allowing for some isometric tension. Recoil management is difficult using this stance. Christina places four shots in an extreme vertical spread that is definitely not ideal for defensive shooting.
Next she takes an athletic stance with both legs parallel and the body facing the target squarely, knees slightly bent, shoulders in front of the hips. With this stance, the shooter has a lot of weight behind the gun. Christina is able to fire four rapid shots into a closed-hand sized group.
When it comes to defensive shooting, there's no question that a good athletic stance, generally squared off the target is the better way to go. You know, one of the most important things when it comes to defensive shooting is going to the recoil management so that you can fire those fast follow-up shots and get that threat stopped as quickly as you can. Despite that fact, we still see people coming to the range and wanting to use bladed stances, upright stances, stances that might be great for precision shooting, might work in areas where you're gonna be doing limited strings of fire, like two shots to one target, two shots to another target, two shots to another target, single shots taking down a plate rack, something like that, but aren't good for rapid multiple shots strings of fire with a high volume of fire in that high center chest at typical defensive distances. Let's take a look at why. Christina has been trained to shoot in a good athletic stance but we're going to try to coach her into what I think is an inappropriate stance for defensive shooting, the weaver stance. Very popular in the past, very controlled circumstances, under which it seems to work well but when we truly just want to shoot a rapid string of fire at the torso of a threat at a typical distance, we're gonna see where the failure points are. So Christina, what I'm gonna do is have you stay straight up. Good and bring your right leg back, okay, that's typical weaver stance is going to involve bringing your strong leg back, drive your strong arm all the way out. Keep your torso bladed though, turn away and that's going to cause this bend in the elbow. That bend in the elbow is going to allow for some isometric tension. You're pushing forward with this hand, while you're pulling back with your weak hand and pulling back is gonna isolate the position of the gun. In this position, she's gonna be able to hold the tremor of the gun, any movement of the gun down, she can close an eye, she can use the sights, she can get her alignment and be very precise and it's a target shooting position. Let's see what happens when she fires four shots as fast as she can. We're probably gonna get about four shots in one second. Christina, when you're ready. And I'll take the gun and we'll go down here and take a look at what happens. Now from the side view, you probably saw her body rock back and that gun move up in the frame, relative to her head. That's very typical. If you think about it, she's got this arm out straight, her back is arched, she's got this elbow bent and that gun, really, has nowhere else to go. Right, now this is a very extreme spread of shots, as you can see, now somebody's gonna look at this and say, "Well, they're all in the torso so that counts," but we don't want to count on luck. Just the fact that we're inside of a piece of paper torso. We know the head moves, the body moves, this is one of the reasons we shoot at the high center chest. If we vary or if the person moves or is startled, they flinch, they lower their center of gravity, they turn for whatever reason, when we shoot at them, we're still likely to stay in the torso in that vital area. Right, so when we see a shot all the way down here and a shot all the way up here, that kind of vertical stringing is what's typical of a back straight target shooting poor recoil management type position and that's certainly what we see if we go back and look, as she shot we saw a lot of variation vertically in the position of the gun relative to her body. And that's pretty typical. So we're going to try to get rid of some of that vertical string and you have Christina shooting approximately the same pace. Let me go ahead and get my high protection back on. But this time we're going to have her shoot in a good athletic stance. She's going to lower her center of gravity, bend the knees, close the hips, get her shoulders in front of her hips that gets her body weight behind the gun, when she extends both arms fully, gets her shoulders engaged that her shoulders are not next to her torso, over her hips but in front of her torso, obviously your torso is leaning forward, she's got a lot of weight behind the gun. You come back in and relax. This is the high compressed ready position. She's gonna lower her center of gravity and at this point, when she's ready, she can drive out and fire four shots again, as fast as she can pull the trigger. Awesome, that gun's empty, I'll take it, put it back down here on the table. And we can see that those four shots, much less vertical disparity and we have a good closed hand size group. Obviously on this target, she's aiming at this X. This is the old kind of B29, B21 type target and the fact is B27, depending on which version you use, this one here has a lower than we would normally use group area, right? We want to be in the high center chest but this idea of shooting and controlling recoil, being able to fire those four shots into this size group or even this size group as opposed to this huge vertical stringing, that's the reason that we don't trust the weaver position. Now we know that there are a lot of people who can shoot very well in that position and in the past, a lot of people have shot very well in that position but almost always in a controlled environment. And that controlled environment has included a lot of competition and a lot of choreograph training where people were told to shoot two shots, pause, shoot two shots, pause, things like IDPA, things like IPSE. The idea is to not choreograph your training. The idea is to shoot as many shots as you need until the threat stops and to shoot them as quickly as you can and the best way to do that is with an athletic stance not with a target shooting position, like the weaver stance.
I'm also old enough that I was taught the weaver stance. I learned the iso stance and my shot groups improved drastically. When I was younger I was also taught to shoot with one hand instead of two.
Totally disagree with this. There are numerous reasons and Rob hit on them but that's the problem. Shooter fatigue will happen from his stance and wont be able to fight or even step backward very well.
this is entirely wrong. Many shooters shoot better with the Weaver stance. Most women do NOT because of their Breast muscles push them of target after a long string. In some defensive positions it is not advisable to have the gun extended all the way out in front, it is very easy to take her gun in that position. I teach weapons and we teach to shoot with a stance and without a proper stance when necessary. We also teach Weapons retention which I think should be included in any Handgun class. .
In most force on force cases, stances are not all that important to shot placement. I can move around dynamically and be just fine. I shoot 12" plates at 10 to 25 yards standing still with rapid fire and do fine, I prefer the bladed stance over being squared off.
Short and sweet. Are they getting ready to shoot at you, or have already shot? I would want to give them as little 'target' sight picture as possible, (smaller) which would only be the weaver. Broadside makes a lot bigger target.
It is the best stance to prepare for a fight PERIOD. When you use it, if you shoot a long gun you do not have to learn a new set of techniques that actually put at least 6 groups of muscles into play therefore potentially allowing much greater opportunity to shake or quiver. It only takes one muscle to contract to pull the shot off target, I have done it when in a rest position but one far from natural. As a martial artist, you never face an attacker square if it there is anyway to avoid it. In the Weaver I teach, the body is far more relaxed even in a tense situation. I have taught students that were not able to shoot square to the target leaning forward slightly, head dropped forward, etc. The age and injuries to their bodies would not allow it. When teaching anyone to shoot, if you style cannot be adapted to fit the shooter's body and limitations, you need to keep studying positions. BTW, I have tried every position that has ever been written about in the last 40+ years. I tried isosceles, but could never get completely comfortable with it. Just saying . . .
While this demonstration illustrates some points that are important regarding a solid stance, I don't agree with the basic statement, "Why Not To Use The Weaver Stance". I think it should be worded, "Why the Weaver Stance may not be right for you!" I use a modified Weaver stance and it works best for me, for accuracy and for rapid fire. I have one leg shorter than the other due to an accident many years ago, and the Weaver is the most comfortable and solid for me.
My normal stance is the Weaver stance. I wasn't taught that, but it just naturally felt comfortable as it's similar to my starting stance when bowling(which I've done for YEARS). But I can see a couple of possible advantages to the ISO stance - easier to lean left while shooting around cover(I'm right handed). Easier to drop to either knee if needed. With the Weaver stance it would definitely be easier to drop to my right knee. Since I'll be trying my first competition later this month, I'll work on the ISO stance more during my range sessions, to at least become more familiar with something that may help...
Why did the shooter not have at least one round solidly in the center of the chest when shooting from the Weaver stance? At minimum the first round should have hit center even if the stance caused vertical stringing on follow up shots.
I have seen this instructor before and he seems competent, but loses credibility on this one. He takes a shooter trained with the combat stance, then spends 30 seconds teaching her a new stance (Weaver). Am I supposed to be surprised that she shoots significantly better using the stance that she trained in? What he should have done is taken a shooter trained in Weaver, then spend a few minutes teaching the combat stance. Then, if the shooter was better in the combat stance, he would have made his point. I am a big believer in learning as many different stances and techniques as possible from different instructors that have different philosophies. Then use the one that best fits you and the situation you are in.