PDN LIVE! February 2017

It performs like a full-size handgun. It has the power of one too. Only, it's incredibly thin and remarkably compact. Meet the Springfield Armory XDS. Easy to shoot because it fits safely and comfortably into your hand, and into your life. Finally, a carry pistol you'll actually look forward to shooting. The XDS from Springfield Armory. Noticeably unnoticeable. Hi, everyone, happy February, and welcome to this month's episode of "PDN Live". I am your moderator, Shannon, and we have a really interesting topic tonight. It is interacting with law enforcement while armed. And please know that during the show, if you have any questions that come up, please type them in. The live feed is pretty much really great way to get your questions answered really quickly by our guests. Our guest tonight, we have Jamie Onion, and then as usual, we have Rob Pincus. If anyone wants to get a hold of us after the show, you can follow us online. You can find us at personaldefensenetwork.com. You can find us on Twitter @P_D_N, let's see here, at Instagram, @pdnetwork, facebook.com/PersonalDefenseNetwork, and if you like what you're hearing, subscribe to our newsletter, it's pretty awesome. So, Rob, you wanna get us caught up on what you're doing? You got a PDN tour coming up soon and then just tell us what you've been up to. I've been running all over the place. A lot of people might've have seen the blog at PDN that was ICE Training or some of the social media stuff I did while I was over in the Czech Republic. I had a last minute, 36-hour notice opportunity to go over there and check out a new pistol and a new ammunition round caliber, actually, that a lot of people have been talking about, the FK BRNO 7.5. Getting ready for the European version of Shot Show coming up in a couple of weeks. They wanted me to come over and evaluate it. That gun got approved for import into the US, so that was kind of cool. I went over there and checked that out. People can learn more about that again at the blog at personaleventsnetwork.com And that's it, just getting ready for the tour. The tour kicks off. We'll be doing our next live broadcast about a week after the tour starts. I'll be down in Florida, March 18th is the first tour date. People can learn more about the tour, the sponsors, the instructors. We have some new instructors added this year to the tour schedule at personaleventsnetwork.com under the training tab. And one of our returning sponsors for the tour is actually the sponsor of tonight's broadcast, Springfield Armory. I did a little live feed from Springfield Armory's Facebook page earlier. They grant me the privilege every once in a while of logging in and using their distribution channel. And we were talking about the really cool $9,500+ ultimate giveaway that we're doing with Springfield, Personal Events Network, Action Card, Great American Trigger Corp, maybe American Trigger Company, a bunch of other people and Crossbreed Holsters, of course, is one of them. But Springfield sponsoring tonight's event is cool. They have a big overlap between the law enforcement community and the civilian arm, self-defense home defense population. So, it's cool that they're sponsoring our talk tonight on interactions with law enforcement while armed. I actually first came into contact with what would eventually become the Springfield XD when I was writing for SWAT magazine. And it was just about 15 years ago. I think it was like on one of the spring covers in 2002. I did a cover review article on that gun, which would eventually not be, I think it was the HS 2000 would eventually become the Springfield XD. Springfield XDS nine millimeter is what I normally carry. I've got one on right now, nine millimeter in the crossbreed holster, so it's great to have them part of the "PDN Live". This is actually the first time we've had a sponsor for the Live events and we've been doing them for, I don't know, it's been like two years now, I guess. And the first time we brought someone in and officially said, "Hey, thank you for supporting what we're doing and helping us spread the message." So, much thanks to Springfield for that. Yeah, so, we'll see more from them throughout the show. Jamie, special welcome to the show. Tell us a little bit about yourself and how you are involved in the firearms industry, and where people can get ahold of you. Okay, well, I've been a law enforcement officer for about the last 16 years. I started out working in the city. Now I work for a small suburb. In regard to the firearms industry, I work for Rob and his company doing some instructor development, helping with some of the program development, and as a senior instructor for ICE Training. Awesome, and then with tonight's topic of interacting with law enforcement while armed, I think it'd be fun for you and Rob, and maybe myself to talk about maybe your first run in, whether that was, if you're a younger or as an adult, your first run in with law enforcement while you were armed and how you dealt with it. And then maybe we can get into how you deal with it now. But just a quick story on your first run in with law enforcement while armed. Okay, well, unfortunately my state where I live, we didn't have concealed carry till 2004. So, my first encounter with law enforcement while armed was as a police officer, and there's not much of a story to tell there. It was interesting even though being part of the law enforcement field and community, that first interaction was nervous, because you really understand the fact that, you're armed at the time, you're having that encounter law enforcement and there's part of you that really wants to get that information out to them so they're comfortable in case you're in a situation where they were to find that out. You want them to find it out from you first. So, even as a law enforcement officer at that time, it was a little bit uncomfortable. How would you advise people to deal with maybe those nerves of being uncomfortable or nervous when they have that interaction with law enforcement? Well, the first thing is to go back to what you learned during your concealed carry class, or what the laws are pertaining in your state. You have to make yourself familiar with that information in regard to how to deal with the law enforcement officer. And if the instructor in that program didn't handle that part during your class, it's something that you really should rehearse beforehand. So, you understand what you're gonna say and how you're gonna present that information to the police officer when you do encounter them. So, Rob, why don't you tell us your first experience with law enforcement while you were armed? I know that you have law enforcement background, but if you wanna tell us a little bit about maybe your first run in with law while armed. You know, honestly, I was thinking about that as you were asking Jamie. For the people who don't know, I have been an active law enforcement officer in the past. I left full-time law enforcement work in 2001 to become a full-time instructor and obviously ended up here. But for most of the last, almost 25 years, I've had at least a reserve commission with the Sheriff's officer or with the city, and still work in law enforcement and still do reserve work here in Colorado with the San Juan County Sheriff's office out in Southwestern Colorado. So, I've been on both sides of that fence. The fence of having myself be legally armed, in a vehicle or out in public or in my home, and interacted with law enforcement on various occasions. And of course, I've been on the other side wearing the uniform, interacting with both lawfully and unlawfully armed people. And maybe seen just about as many variations as you could go through of how that plays out, good and bad. And when I think about my early interactions with law enforcement while armed, legally, not as a police officer or as an off-duty police officer, there used to be a lot more tension in those relationships. What I think is the trend that most people are seeing around the community, around that the community of armed citizens and people interested in personal defense, as well as the law enforcement community. There used to be a lot more tension, because as Jamie alluded to, it used to be a lot more rare that people had concealed carry permits, right? If you go back to the first time that I could carry legally, was right around 1990 and I was living in Vermont, and Vermont had what we now refer to as constitutional carry. The idea that you don't need a permit if you legally could carry a gun, if you legally could own a gun, then you legally could carry it. And there were a couple of municipalities inside of Vermont where you couldn't do that. And as I'm talking through this, that's probably my first interaction, was living in Vermont and driving a car that probably we went a little bit over the speed limit in. It was one of the old 5-litre Mustangs, and getting pulled over by a Vermont state trooper and having a concealed firearm on my person at that time. And notifying that officer and it not really being that big of a deal in Vermont, because again, they had this constitutional carry. But if you look around the country in 1990, there weren't a lot of communities where concealed carry was nearly as popular or as easy to do as it is now. So, there used to be a lot more tension in that relationship. And I can remember on several occasions notifying an officer that I was carrying, even when I was an off-duty police officer or as carrying a concealed carry permit, and being asked to either step out of the vehicle and let the officers remove the gun from my person or being asked to remove the gun from the holster, which I've never really thought made a lot of sense. And while I'm pulling the loaded gun out and unloading in front of the officer or placing it on the dashboard, there were a lot of I think your nervousness issues on the law enforcement side when concealed carry was less common than it is now, a lot better. And I'm anxious to see what questions people are gonna ask in general, and very specifically, about these interactions and of course we have a class now interacting with law enforcement while armed for people that really wanna dive deep into it at personaldefensenetwork.com. Awesome, so, one of the questions that we did get in live, Jamie, if you can perhaps answer this one since you are in law enforcement. "While traveling through states and you have a concealed carry permit, if you're pulled over by law enforcement, does your permit show up nationwide?" For example, if you've got like I'm in Oregon and I go to Utah, I get pulled over in Utah. Does it show up that in the computer that I have a concealed carry permit? So, to speak to our local area here in Ohio, it is attached to your driver's license. So, when you do get your concealed carry permit through the Sheriff's departments, it does attach to the vehicle plate and your driver's license. So, when they do check that, they will be able to see it. But as from state to state, there may be states that share databases, but as far as a nationwide database, there's none that I'm aware of. Okay and "When you get pulled over, do you need to or should you offer up the information that you are concealed carry permit holder, since it is tied to your license, they'll eventually find out. What's the etiquette there behind that?" Okay, so those are actually two different questions, Shannon. So, do I need to and should I? Some states don't require that you do that. As part of the law, there's no duty to inform the law enforcement officer. Here in Ohio, we do have that duty. I do believe that regardless of if that exists, I think it's an important thing to do to notify that law enforcement officer. And typically when the encounter's contextual that it requires that, your typical traffic stop, you may not be getting out of the car, but something like your disabled vehicle, where you're on the side of the road changing a tire, and you're gonna be interacting in that public environment outside the car, I think it's super important to make that notification, regardless of if it's part of the law or statute or not. Okay and I guess this is also very dependent on where you live or the law that you're in, but are you required to surrender your firearm when dealing with law enforcement, and how do you go about doing that properly? Okay, so, in Ohio, again, we have the statute that states that there is the provision for law enforcement to remove the firearm. As Rob said, when the statute was first enacted, there was that little bit of tension and concern on the part of many law enforcement officers, so that was common. And it was common for the law enforcement officer to actually remove the firearm from the person. I can't recall a time where we would want the person to actually remove the firearm on their own and hand it over to us, because the whole purpose of taking possession of the firearm would be for control. But again, it's not a standard practice that we do and as that relationship is built, the laws change. And the law enforcement officers have become more comfortable with it, that's not something we see happen on a regular basis, unless the context of the encounter dictates that it may be who of us to take that firearm. Okay and then Rob, you travel a lot. You travel with firearms when across state lines and multiple states and cities and counties. How do you travel with those firearms? A lot of questions that we get is do you travel with the ammo separate from the firearms, in the same compartment, in the trunk? What's the right way of going about carrying multiple firearms in your vehicle and being prepared to deal with that if you do have run in with law enforcement? Well, there's an overriding federal law called the Firearms Owners Protection Act, which allows you to travel from one place that you can legally possess a firearm, to another place that you can legally possess the firearm, provided that the firearm is secured in a way that it's not accessible to the passenger compartment. And of course, if you have an SUV or something like that, it needs to be all the way back in the cargo area. Most people will disassemble the guns in some way when they're traveling, especially through some of the more restrictive states or areas under this act. You'll secure the gun in a locked case, preferably like a hard case, separate from ammunition, but you're not ready to go if you're traveling under that federal umbrella. Now there have been cases where people traveling appropriately under that federal umbrella through areas such as Washington, D.C., or maybe parts of New York or all of New York state recently, it's become a lot more restrictive. Or New Jersey in particular, where even off-duty police officers have been charged and in some cases convicted firearms, even under the federal protections because they don't have the right to legally posses the gun in New Jersey, for example. Now one of the problems is the confusion sometimes over someone who's doing it properly under the federal law, and somebody who's just claiming that they were allowed safe travel and safe passage through those areas where they couldn't possess a gun because of the federal law. And sometimes that gets really sticky, especially when you look at the hearsay and the anecdote and the internet conversation. So, if I'm traveling from, let's say I'm driving from Florida where I'm a resident, up to New Hampshire, where I can legally possess pretty much any gun that I own down in Florida. And I secure these guns properly, separate from the ammunition, disassembled, locked up in the back of the truck and I drive straight through New Jersey, New York, Washington, D.C., I don't stop for gas in any of those states, I don't stop to see my family and friends, I don't stop for any reason whatsoever, I just pass through, I'm pretty secure under the federal law. If I get pulled over for speeding, or I get pulled over 'cause my headlight goes out, that's where the interaction comes in and that's where there really is this obligation to say, "Hey, here's the situation I'm in. I'm traveling from one place to another. I legally own and can legally possess firearms in both of those places. And those firearms are secured in the back of the truck." Now, a lot of people are gonna say, "You'd be foolish to mention that if you got pulled over by a New Jersey state trooper. If you got pulled over driving through New York city on one of the interstates, across one of the bridges to get up to New Hampshire." Is that eventually, the problem is this, if the officer asks you and you say, "No," or if the officer asks you and you act like you're hiding, or if the officer doesn't even have to ask you, but maybe you broke down on the side of the road, and the officer's helping you get your spare tire out or helping you get a tire on or doing something else or watches you do it back to the car and sees the gun case, that officer is immediately going to become a little bit more suspicious of the situation because you didn't take the time to notify them of you doing something that you presumably were doing legally. I travel, again, most of the time, especially like the Ford truck. I mean, it's marked with gun logos, it's got the Springfield Armory logo on it, Personal Defense Network. It's pretty obvious that there's something going on with guns in that vehicle. I research the areas that I'm traveling through. Some states, my permits are valid. What I don't do, because I'm a reserve deputy in a small remote county in Colorado, I don't claim the privilege of carrying a gun because I'm a cop. So, when I travel around the country, I travel around just like anybody else with a concealed carry permit. So, if my concealed carry permit isn't valid in the state that I'm traveling to, then I won't carry concealed based on the fact that I'm a reserve deputy. Real gray area there, and it's not something that I push or lean into. I travel to Europe, I've traveled a lot of my life. I'm in places where I can't carry guns, where I don't have guns and I make other provisions and I have other mindset awareness things in terms of safety and security and defensive tools. So, if I'm driving through Georgia, for example, I can carry concealed or I can have a gun open in a mounted holster inside of the car. I could have a gun concealed inside of the car in the passenger department. or I could have the guns disassembled in the back of the truck. And if I'm driving four or five, six hours on the interstate, there's a chance that all of those things are happening at once. As I move further north and I start getting into some other states, all the guns at some points, may be disassembled and locked in the vaults in the back of the truck, none of them accessible, none of them loaded and all of them secure from ammunition, which is secure in other containers. So, how I travel really depends on where I'm traveling. But the fact is, if you're not stopping, you can carry the gun under federal protection. The minute you start stopping in those states, if you're staying overnight with a friend, if you stop in a hotel, if you stop to get gas, if you stop to get a meal, that's where you start potentially getting into jeopardy, depending on the state law and honestly, the officer that you interact with, under whatever conditions it is. Traffic violation, breakdown on the side of the road, or maybe you have to report a crime, or you get into a traffic accident. So, you mentioned Springfield Armory and they're one of the sponsors of tonight's topic. Do you wanna show us something that you have from Springfield Armory? So, I've talked about how they do overlap into the law enforcement world. I think this is one of the the cooler guns they've come out with recently. This is the a five inch, it's got a tactical on the side, it's got a grip zone on the side. This is the 5" XD MOD.2. This is a full sized gun, it's got the full size grip, obviously And it's got a five inch barrel and slide instead of the normal four inch that you see on the XDs. And this is the kind of thing you might see from Springfield as a home defense gun, which is what I use it for here at the Western HQ stage and security, one of the tactical walls, clandestine staging areas and set up, but it could also be set up very easily for a duty holster. You put it in, say like, any kind of video, Safari land kind of thing, maybe a survey kind of thing, something like that, and this could be a great duty gun as well. So, one of the Springfield guns in my collection that normally serves a role in a home defense role it's the one we'll talk about that we're gonna show a couple other things off during the show as well, since Springfield's helping us bring this information to everybody. Jamie, what are your thoughts on traveling? Have you had many times? I don't know in your jurisdiction now if you have any of those major thoroughfares, but Ohio has a bunch of cross-through roads, and I'm sure you get from time to time some interaction, maybe with people just visiting your jurisdiction now? Sure, we have interstate 90 that crosses through which is a pretty big, main hub to cross down. And we treat it from common sense standpoint, but I have to go back and reiterate what you said that regardless of your stance on what the law says and what it is, it's important that you notify because as the law enforcement officer, you're gonna see that tinge of nervousness if you're trying to hide something and that's gonna lead us to ask those questions, and if we find that you're trying to hide it or conceal it, it's gonna be more of an issue than if you just tell it. I think as we become more comfortable with the second amendment issues and concealed carry permit and the fact that people are arming themselves in travel, whether it's for sport or for training, I think they're gonna see less of those elicit interactions and more understanding in regard to the travel, especially if you're doing your part and doing the good faith notification. And Jamie, if you would, talk a little bit about 'cause I think a lot of people are thinking, "Well, wait why would I ever say anything? Because if I'm just getting a speeding ticket or I'm getting a warning, I'm sure the officer's never gonna know." So, why would you- That's a live question. Thank you, Rob. Okay, cool. So, Jamie talk about the idea of contact and cover officer, not trade secret stuff, but just make people aware that they may not know everything that's going on, they may not see every angle that the officers are seeing and that could really cause a problem. Sure, obviously, most people underestimate the dangers that are involved with a typical traffic stop. It's not just about the traffic violation. So, we're looking for many things when we do that. Now there's the safety around the traffic, we're assessing the cars we walk up. We're not just thinking about the traffic violation, we're looking into the vehicle and making assessment of the bags, the packages the boxes that we see and while we're interacting with you and asking you questions in regard to the traffic incident that we're dealing with or maybe the disabled vehicle, there may be another officer on scene making sure that there's nothing going on with the vehicle, there's not any other suspicious activity taking place. And if they noticed one of those things, the bag, the box, the bag of ammunition or box of ammunition that we may see in there, and we ask you about it and you're not honest and truthful, then that's gonna lead us to ask those other questions and probably not be as cooperative with you regardless of what the law is and make us ask those questions that are going to make it a little bit harder for you to get down the road to where if you're honest with us and we can ascertain the fact that you are a good person trying to follow the law and giving us a good faith advisement so we're not concerned when we find that on our own, we're more than likely just to see it for what it is, conduct business that we need to conduct and let you go down the road. Yeah, I think a lot of people don't realize too that there is usually, I wouldn't say usually, but there's quite often another officer that they may not even be aware is there. People probably realize, they see on the side of the road, it's not that like the officer's always walking up to the same side of the car even. Sometimes the officer's gonna go to the passenger side, sometimes they come up to the driver's side. There may be an officer watching from the passenger side while the primary officer talks to you at the window and if you reach officer you're talking to you can't see where your gun is concealed on your body or in the car but as you reach or turn or go to get that insurance paperwork in the glove box or wherever it may be, maybe turning interior light on it, when you lift that jacket or shirt up, the other officer may see the gun and that can quickly and dramatically escalate things if you haven't notified the officer in the first place. Sorry, if you do escalate that and it does turn into tension, a little bit of a tension situation, how do you de-escalate it from there now that you've imprinted and the other officer's seen you, how do you de-escalate that situation? Okay, so, if you do make that mistake what we have to think about where I was going before I started to interrupt you there, Shannon is the fact that likely if you're engulfed in this culture whether it's the training culture, concealed carry, there may be something in there, a cue that that other officer or myself might see whether it's a piece of ammunition, maybe it's an owner's manual or a holster or something that you left in the car that you're not even thinking about that's in there. And when you see that, it escalates that situation. Depending on how you handle that when those follow-up questions are asked is gonna change my demeanor or the demeanor of my partner that's on the scene when we do that. So, it's really gonna be a matter of how the person reacts and how we're gonna react to that. But simply seeing it absent to notification we have no choice but to think the worst and work backwards from there until we get those cues that tell us that it's okay to back off and soften up the approach a little bit. And most of that can be avoided just simply with that good faith advisement. And you mentioned cues to soften a little bit. What type of cues are you talking about there? Well, sure. So, typically one of two things will happen. If you haven't been in that situation before, sometimes the nervousness can get to the point where you're like you wanna show the officer that it's not a threat. You're not a threat. You wanna reach for the item and show them that it's not a concern. Whether it just be a holster or a magazine or something like that or the tendency is to move your hands towards that item. Or it might even be to put your hands up to show that there is not a type of threat. And depending on how that goes is how we're going to react to that. And the verbal commands are gonna be there. And, depending on the officer that you get, their experience with dealing with someone who's armed, whether is legally or illegally armed is also gonna change the way that they respond to that. So, Jamie, you brought up a really good point earlier in the broadcast here. And that was a lot more people are starting to become armed. A lot more people are starting to carry. So, let's speak to the person who's watching this "PDN Live" tonight and that is a first-time carrier. Maybe they have only taken one of the concealed carry classes to get their permit walk them through the proper steps of being pulled over for the first time whether that's for a broken headlight or for speeding and just walk them through that process of what they should do and what type of questions the officer's going to ask. Sure, I get this question a lot. And one of the things that I say is we often tend to keep that concealed carry permit in our wallet or something like that. One of the things that we'll often hear is, "Well, maybe I'll keep it on the dash or in the cup holder in the center console or something like that." Well, that's easy to forget. One of the easiest ways to do it is just keep your hands on the steering wheel, maybe turn on your interior light when the officer approaches. You don't have to interrupt them when they approach 'cause we usually have a way that we approach a car, tell you why your stop. Once you get an opportunity to interact with the officer and tell them, it should be one of the first things that you advise them on, whether you're in a state that requires a concealed permit whether it requires the advisement or not, I think it's a good idea to keep the hands on the steering wheel when we approach and with an opportunity, let us know that you are lawfully armed and where that firearm is. And then the police officer that you're interacting with will give you instructions from there, whether it's to retrieve the permit, ask you where the firearm's at or get your document out of the glove box, something like that. But that advisement's gonna dictate how that encounter goes and then you'll get the instructions from there. Okay, so, follow instructions, listen clearly, follow instructions. So, for those of you that are just- Something I just wanna throw in there real quick, is that sometimes, especially getting to what Jamie said about the experience of the officer and how nervous they are, following directions sometimes can be, the direction as we know can sometimes be contradictory. So, if someone says, put your hands up and your hands are near the gun or near your waistline and you move your hands quickly, well, that quick motion is probably the same motion essentially, if you were gonna draw the gun out. So put your hands up, and you wanna do that, you absolutely wanna follow the directions but you probably wanna make sure that you're doing it slowly. You wanna make sure that you're doing it deliberately. Some of the things, if the officer says, "Get me your license," and your license is near the gun, you know, that's a really important time to say, "Officer, before I reach towards my waistband, I wanna let you know that my wallet is also near where I'm carrying my gun inside my waistband." So, the following directions thing is obviously incredibly important, but you also have to think critically about how you follow those directions and if the officer doesn't have all the information, you're gonna reach into the glove box, he tells you, "Could you get me your insurance?" And you're gonna follow his instructions, get him the insurance paperwork, but you're also reaching towards a firearm when you're doing that. That's potentially a way of following directions but putting yourself in more danger of potentially escalating the situation. Awesome, thank you. So, this is a live event. We've been getting a lot of great questions. Please keep submitting more of your questions. Tonight's topic is interacting with law enforcement while arms, and the more on topic your question is, the more likely it will get answered. Our special guest tonight is Jamie Onion and as usual, we have Rob Pincus from Personal Defense Network, and it's kinda special. This episode is brought to you by Springfield Armory and Rob has been doing some show and tell. So, Rob, would you like to show us some more of what's from Springfield armory? I like gray, I think gray is a cool color. And gray is one of the newest colors that Springfield Armory's been doing their XD guns in and as far as the polymer goes and this is the 4" MOD.2. If you haven't held the MOD.2, MOD.2, a lot of you have talked about it 'cause it says grip zone on there which is kind of silly, but they did it, they put grip zone on there as if you didn't know where to grip the gun. But the cool thing is that this is one of now, and it's interesting, Smith & Wesson has done this now too. This is an existing chassis, a well known, reliable, proven existing chassis. I've seen a lot of these guns in a lot of people's hands. Everybody's got their fan boy affiliation out there. Some guys hate the Springfields, some guys hate the glocks some guys hate 1911, whatever it is. But if you really look at this gun objectively and you look at its performance out on the range in a lot of people's hands, the XD's a very proven system. And what Springfield did a few years ago was not mess with the proven system at all, they just change the ergonomics and I think dramatically improved it. I think it's one of the best upgrades to an existing, reliable chassis firing system gun that we've seen in the industry. And I'm hopeful that other companies are doing this as well but Springfield really did it incredibly well here. The grip, the contour, the changes they made, even with the grip zone label really improved the way this gun feels in most people's hands. The XD was always a great gun for people with shorter fingers or fatter hands and a shorter trigger reach, but they really improved it dramatically with some of this contouring here, and a lot of people like this texture a lot more than the original XD or even the current XDM. There's a little bit more forgiving in terms of its abrasiveness in a lot of the areas but it's very roughly textured in the areas if you want for managing recoil up against the hand. So, this is the MOD.2 in gray. This is the standard kind of a size gun, the four inch gun. Just go carry and or home defense, maybe in a vehicle, all kind of that stuff. Very cool, I like the color of that. And you're talking about the texture on there, what type of texture is on that grip? So, what they've got is there's actually three different textures in the MOD.2. So you've got a smooth and then you've got a moderate roughness, and then you've got a more aggressive roughness in some of the areas that impact the hand more especially under recoil. So, they've really kinda thought that through pretty well. They're not the only gun company that does it, but I think they were one of the first ones really to jump heavily into taking an existing gun, not messing with the way it operates in terms of reliability or function, just making it a much better gun in how it fits the hand. Awesome, thank you. So, let's get back to the topic at hand tonight and that is interacting with law enforcement while armed. Jamie brought up a lot of really good points, Rob. I'm not sure if you wanna rehash through some of the stuff that he had brought up. I think, Jamie, you talked about the traffic stop, right? I taught same things that you said, put your window down, especially if they're tinted, remember the tinted windows put those down especially at night, turn on the interior light. I used to tell people to hold on to the steering wheel but because we know that people can palm things behind the steering wheel, I now tell people to press their palms against the steering wheel and just leave their fingers, don't have to be rigid, but curl it open so that your hand is open. If you really feel like the officer is nervous for some reason, if their gun's drawn, if you see that they're standing off that maybe they think you're a felony escapee, and they're a little bit more aggressive about the way they're approaching your car and watching your car, you might even turn your hands around so, that when the officer comes up they're seeing your palms open on that steering wheel. There's some things you can do. Now outside of the traffic stop, which obviously is the most common interaction with law enforcement while armed, what would you say if an officer comes up to you and says, "Sir, excuse me, can I talk to you for a moment?" You have no idea why, but you know that you're carrying a gun at that time, what are you gonna gonna look for or want or maybe want not to happen in terms of not escalating the situation? Maybe somebody did see your gun. Jacket pulled up and he said, "Hey, that guy over there in the black jacket has a gun," and the officer's gonna talk to you about it. Maybe they think you're a guy they wanna interview about potentially you look like the guy that committed a crime, maybe they just wanna ask you if you've seen somebody in the area, whatever it is, guy walks up to you or you walk up to a guy down the street, what are you looking for from them if they're armed while you're on duty? Okay, so, the same thing applies. I still think whether you have a lawful need to do that or it's part of the legislation or not. I think it's important that you advise them on the first chance that you get. Obviously, what I've had recently, I just had actually, where I encountered someone who had a concealed carry permit here in Ohio and as I walked up to them, they pulled their shirt up and said, before they exposed the gun, before they told me that they were armed and that they were concealed carry holder, probably not the best idea. The first chance that you get to have that verbal interaction where you get to talk is where he should probably advise that officer you're armed or not, especially in that situation, Rob where you don't know why you're being encountered. It could be something as simple as we wanna know if you saw somebody who went by or it could be like you said, someone saw your gun maybe when you stretched or bend over to tie your shoe or something like that. So, the quicker you can get it out and let them know that you are lawfully armed, it's probably gonna de-escalate the situation before it even gets to the level of an interaction you're not interested in having. And as far as the, and I don't know if you have an anecdote or just a basic principle from training and from having forethought about what you would do in this situation, have someone who is reporting a crime, maybe somebody's agitated, maybe somebody had a hit and run, traffic accident, something like that and they're armed, is it all pretty much the same rules, even if the person is initiating the contact with the officer? Yeah, well, obviously again, I spoke a little bit earlier in the context of the interaction. If we have somebody who's not being rational or maybe their emotions are getting the best of them because of the situation, that might be one of those situations where I would take control of firearm at least until I figure it out what the situation was and it's gonna be important, especially if you are a lawfully armed citizen at that point that you don't escalate the situation by trying to fight that interaction or the removal of the firearm at that time. It's not necessarily that we're trying to infringe on that right which some people may have that view. It's more about taking that out of the equation so it's not something that we have to be concerned with while we're trying to figure out what the real problem in regard to the interaction of why we're there is. So, it's gonna change better. So, real quick on that note, is there a protocol that you follow when it comes time to secure the firearm from that person when they're not an overt threat, they haven't threatened you, you may not even be arresting them or even putting them in any custody. What's your procedure that you like to follow and do you think that there is a common way of doing it from your perspective in the law enforcement community right now, at least in the Midwest in your region? Sure, and I mean we've talked about this at my agency. One of the ways we're gonna do, you talk about the concept of contact and cover which I'm not gonna go into in too much detail but it's gonna be one of those situations where it's not something I'm gonna do on my own especially if the emotions are high. When someone's there, I'm gonna treat it how the situation dictates it. If the person's being rational with the interaction and not gonna argue the fact that it's a good idea for me to remove the firearm, I'm gonna treat it similar like you or I would when we take a student's firearm in class for a demo. I'm not gonna take it to a level that it doesn't need to or make it more rigid than it needs to and risk escalating the situation for no reason especially since that might be a piece of property that they're very attached to, either through the way they obtained it or something else, I'm gonna treat it with respect as long as the situation dictates that. And just like we do in a class, I'm probably gonna walk up and I'm gonna have a partner there that's gonna make sure that there's not gonna be anything swirly that goes on. And I'm gonna take that firearm from them in a manner that's safe, grip with my fingers somewhere other than the trigger and I'm gonna remove it for the duration of that interaction. You know, it's interesting you mentioned that because being in a remote county here and having worked in some more remote areas, I know you have backup pretty close, whether it's your jurisdiction or neighbor jurisdictions, you probably don't have very many situations where you would have to have an extended period alone with someone, especially if you were calling for help because of an escalating risk situation. But I've been in some places, I know there's a lot of law enforcement officers out there even the state troopers on the highways that don't have that luxury quite often. And one of the ways that I've handled situations in the past, primarily with knives, but on at least one occasion with a legally carried handgun under those kind of emotionally stressful situations and environment where I was alone is simply you have the person place their hands up on top of their head, interlock their fingers, something like that, or place their hands somewhere on top of a truck or a vehicle and just say, "Hey, don't move your hands towards that item." In other words, I don't wanna get close enough to them to take it away. I don't want them to reach for it and secure it because obviously that's giving them access, letting them put it into their hands, but at the same time, I'm gonna give them some instructions that are gonna keep their hands from floating towards that gun and let them know that if they do that, I'll consider it a threat and a threatening action. So, I think if people out there hear that kind of instruction, if you're told that for some reason, the officer may not have any intention of getting near you or taking the gun from you, but they may very well wanna know that your hands are not gonna move towards it. And I don't know if you've encountered that or talked about that in some of the training environments either? Sure, absolutely. I mean, though I do have back up pretty close, I mean, we're gonna treat that whether it's a criminal suspect or someone that we're interacting with, maybe they are a legally armed citizen, their emotions are a little bit high. Obviously we wanna do that when we have someone else there. And if you're gonna need that time, you lay that set of parameters out. And if someone is willing to violate that rule, there's actually kind of an idea of where their intentions might be. Again, you don't wanna escalate it. If there is a little bit of movement, we wanna give them an opportunity to comply. But again, laying that groundwork and setting that foundation with those rules that you set and clearly delineating what our belief is gonna be if they violate those orders that we gave them sets the groundwork to keep it civil and keep it calm and not escalate the situation unless they choose to go outside those parameters. That makes sense and I'm going down a list of questions that we've had submitted through social media just over the last few days in the buildup to this and the last one deals with inside of the home. We talk a lot about the immediate aftermath and we may have some questions about that when get back to Shannon's list here in a second but not the immediate aftermath of a defensive gun use, which I think our community has done a really good job of talking about in terms of personal defense for a long time. But in the event that you didn't have to use a gun but you did call the police, so, maybe you barricaded yourself in your room, the alarm was going off, you weren't sure if someone was in the house, maybe someone was in the house, you called the police, the police show up there isn't anybody in the house. Now you've got a gun in your hand, you've probably alerted through 911, the officer to the fact that you got a gun in your hand, or there's a gun in the home and now you have to interact with them as they come in not knowing what they're walking into in an era where we've seen police officers unfortunately ambushed, assassinated essentially when people initiate calls or initiate actions that will get the police to respond and then attack them. So, we've got a lot of tension, you potentially almost had to shoot someone in your house, the police are responding, they've got a lot of tension. What's your recommendation in that scenario? Sure, well, our dispatchers are gonna come into play with that, our communications officers and things like that, relaying that information to us. If it's a situation where they truly know that we're on scene and there's nobody in the house we're gonna have our communications officers give them the directions to set that firearm down, secure the firearm and come out to us. But if it's one of the situations where they are barricaded in that room, like we teach in our home defense class and we need to go to them, we're gonna be relaying with our communications officers to keep them on the phone and make us aware of where they're at and again, set that same set of parameters for them so, they know that we're coming to them and what we expect of them, and if they do anything different that that interaction is gonna be seriously different than what they're expecting our response to be because our safety is gonna be priority. So, as long as they stay within those parameters that are set forth by them, once they get calmed down and realized that the firearm is not gonna be part of their equation, then we'll be able to interact with them without escalating that or making it some type of mistake or misidentification if they don't follow those. And we'll be in contact with that communications officer to let us know if they lose contact with them. So, we make sure that we treat that situation with the right amount of interaction that don't escalate it and know that maybe we are encountering the homeowner and maybe we're encountering that suspect that they thought were in their house, but we'll know that with the contact that we keep with our communications officers. Yeah, I think that's one of the reasons people maybe don't always realize why we say to keep the 911 call alive, even if you just put the phone on speaker, put it down in your room is really important because there may be that interaction necessary and you don't wanna just open the door because somebody knocks on and says, "Hey, it's the police." You, as the homeowner might also wanna be able to use that communications officer to relay specific information. Ask the officer to say his name's Mark or whatever and that way you can have some kind of a back and forth catechism to let somebody know that, yes, you're about to open the door, you've put your gun down and that you trust that it is the police on the other side of that door, that can be done a lot of different ways. But I think that communication that you keep hitting on is so, so important. One of the things I encounter sometimes is people who have this idea that, the police officers are coming into their house, so, they can put their gun away. They're gonna keep their gun in their hand in their house. And that's just, obviously I think you and I would agree that's ridiculous. I understand the sediment, but if you're interacting with law enforcement and especially if you've called them to your house or they have a warrant, or they have any reason to be in your house, you let them in your house, you need to comply with their concerns about safety and let that situation play itself out. You don't wanna escalate things, make things worse because you are refusing to disarm yourself in your own home. If the police are there, they're the ones that are responsible for that scene security. You yielded that to them once you've opened that door. Sure, a lot of these situations can really end peacefully with that common-sense approach like you said. When you look at it from a rational standpoint that you call the police there and you call them there for the help, then that interaction needs to be positive. When we start to have emotions escalate or commands not be followed or rules that we put in place for our response not to be followed, that's obviously gonna escalate the situation especially now that there's a known firearm involved regardless of whether you called initially or not. So, that common sense approach of just following the directions and being rational in the interaction can really keep it from escalating to a different level. So, glad you answered that. That was actually several, that covered several live questions that we got in. And for those of you that are tuning in live, we have just a little under 15 minutes left but still keep those questions coming in and we'll do our best to get around to them. Jamie, I wanna switch gears just a little bit. This came in live as well. Let's shift gears from firearms to knives because someone wrote in and said, "Well, what do I do if I'm not carrying a firearm, but I have a knife on me. Do I need to communicate that? If so, how do I do that? And walk us through that process." Sure, Again, I hate to give the blanket statement but it's really gonna depend on what the laws of your state are in regard to knives. And sometimes those can get much, much more gray as they are here in Ohio. So, the good faith advisement is always there, especially in the context of the interaction whether it's a traffic stop. As Rob alluded to earlier, we talk a lot about the traffic stops where we think that if we just keep our mouth shut, we'll be on our way. Well, with that concept of that contacting cover, maybe that other officer being there seeing something that you may not see that they see, that simple traffic stop can turn into you being asked to step from the vehicle and it can escalate that situation if you didn't advise them anyway. So, I think, Shannon, that the common-sense approach that we already talked about with the firearms would extend into that realm of knife. Okay, and Rob, when you travel with all of your firearms have you had any experience, well, actually you know what? I'm gonna save this for the end of the show, 'cause it'll be wrapping us up all together from the first question I asked. Another live question that came in and this one's very simple, but Jamie, I think it's important, "What happens if you forget to have your concealed carry permit on you and you get pulled over?" Like, what do you do Well again, you're still gonna give the advisement. If it's an accidental thing, that's really gonna depend on the law enforcement officer that you encounter. And if they can check that within their database and see if you indeed do have the concealed carry permit. I know that some states I travel all over and train and provide training, and we talk about this with other law enforcement officers, some of the law enforcement officers will take the firearm until you can produce the fact that you do actually have a permit to lawfully have the gun. That simple forgetfulness, I think is really a lapse in responsibility in many cases, because if you're gonna take on the responsibility of carrying the firearm, you need to make sure that you ad that permit with you, 'cause it can really turn a simple situation where you could be on your way in no time into something that can escalate, not necessarily escalate into something where you're gonna be arrested or detained or anything like that or lead to criminal charges, but take up the time of the law enforcement officer and also stop you from getting from where you're going, which easily could have been avoided if you had the permit with you. And Rob, this question's for you. You travel a lot. Question came in about type of gun vaults, truck vaults to use while traveling. You talked about traveling multiple state lines, a lot of our viewers go on vacations when they go on road trips. What would you recommend to secure the firearms in your vehicle? You know, there's a lot of different ways to do that. And I've done it a lot of different ways over the years, everything from just a soft side gun case with a padlock on it or a soft side gun case in some cases where I didn't lock it up I just had it secured in the back of the vehicle or piled up all over the vehicle in states where it's not a big deal to drive around with firearms on the way to the range or to some class or work event. You know, the box of guns is pretty normal for me in some of the places I've lived. When I'm traveling more cross country kind of thing, the idea for me is to really have something secure because there's times I stop for a meal, stop, the car is parked somewhere outside of my view while I'm teaching a class, there may be a whole bunch of guns in there. So, the truck vault company is one that everyone probably in the gun community is seeing they're incredibly stout, incredibly well-built, basically armored boxes and vaults that a lot of law enforcement use as well as private citizens. I've used some lockers from ARB, a company that outfits for off-road and overland travel. They do everything from suspensions to lift kits to bumpers and rooftop tents and all that. I've used some of their storage lockers that also lock with a key, the truck vaults are usually push button, turn a knob. I've used gun vault products from the Cannon Safe Company that can be wired or hard mounted, bolted into the vehicle. I've used those quite a bit when I'm traveling. What's another one that I've, gunmount.com is a new company on the scene that has both some lockboxes that are like storage kind of vaults that go with that both into the truck. And they also have some quick access for areas where it's not a big deal. You know, we don't see very many pickup trucks with gun racks hanging in the window anymore, but we do know that there are people who like to stage a long gun. Obviously in the law enforcement profession, we staged a lot of long guns in the passenger compartment and gunmount.com is a place you can go to get some very sturdy mounts that are very secure. They prevented the gun from being fired as well as being taken unless somebody's literally gonna rip the seat out or unbolt the apparatus from inside the vehicle. So, there are a lot of different options out there and I've used just about all of them as well as like I said, a hard mounted holster. 'Cause there's times when I'm gonna be on the interstate five, six, seven, eight hours, I may take a firearm off of my body and put it into a hard mount holster. It's not a practice that I do day to day, generally driving around, having a gun off body inside the vehicle, but it's definitely something that I will do on some of the longer drives, different situations depending on how I'm dressed and things like that. And let's talk about resources, a couple of questions that came in live were, where do they go for information about being legal in the different states that they're going to? Is there a website? Is there a book? What type of resources are out there for people who want to follow the laws and be a good citizen, concealed carry holder, what type of information's out there? Jamie, do you have any particular resources that you usually throw out? I know I've got a couple, but have you got some first? The one that I usually steer the students do in our CCW classes is the, and the website's slipping me, I'd have to look in the bookmarks, but it gives a pretty good, if you do the 50-state concealed carry law, it comes up and it allows you to see where your permit is reciprocal as well as give you the nuances into the laws if there's anything with the counties and jurisdictions. It's pretty easy to find through the regular Google search. And that's the primary one I use because it seems to pull from a lot of those other resources that you typically recommend. Yeah, if you just put in concealed carry maps, concealed carry reciprocity maps, there's a couple of different go-to ones out there. You have to, not only, one of the things you have to remember, like for me, a Florida resident permit is very different from having a Florida non-resident permit same thing for Utah and some other places. Reciprocity rules change in some states based on whether your work permit that you're looking to utilize as your reciprocity source is a resident permit or a non-resident. So, you really have to be specific, and some of those websites do a great job with that. I always tell people, the only resource you should trust ultimately needs to end with .gov or .state or whatever is. It's the Attorney General's website or maybe the state police website. If you're not getting the information from the government, not only is it subject to be inaccurate, of course the government websites could be inaccurate or out of date, but at least when that state trooper pulls you over, when a police officer's interacting with you, when you in good faith to follow the law, you're not showing them joebobsgunlawreference.net, you're showing them their state website or their city website with their guidance for gun laws and reciprocity. So, I think that's the best bomb-proof resource to go to. As far as general information, there's a lot of different resources out there for legal information. Massad Ayoob Group is warmly recommended for a long time. The MAG-24s is a great one that has general legal information about gun use and mental preparation and as far as really dwelling on that immediate aftermath, what to do to if you need to use a gun, there's some information there from Massad who's also been a career, a long time reserve police officer up in New Hampshire. He's been doing that for, so he's got a lot of reference information there. Andrew Bronco, who's one of our tour instructors this year for the Personal Defense Network training tour offering laws of self-defense. He also runs a seminar class that puts out a lot of legal information. Certainly he tailors his class also to the location. So, if he's teaching a class in Kansas, he'll do the research on Kansas law and let the Kansas locals know a little bit more about how to interact with law enforcement and what they need to be thinking about. We released, I mentioned that earlier through the Personal Defense Network Academy. we released a new distance education course last month on interacting with law enforcement while armed. The reason we're doing this, the reason I asked Jamie to join me tonight, I think this is an incredibly important topic that doesn't get enough attention to the community talking about what to do after you've had to shoot somebody. When we talk about the traffic stops, some of the information that's been put out there I think is conventional wisdom or cliche or myth in some cases and it's something we need to be talking more about. So, I went in and dealt with all of the resources I had brought in a lot of the information that we put out before in article form or in video form, updated it all, included some worksheets and some handouts that you can personalize the class experience to you and your jurisdiction, your concealed carry permit. And if you take a look at that course, it's a fee of 15 to $25, depending on what discounts being offered at any given time. It's under classes at personaldefensenetwork.com. That's where you gonna find all of our distance education courses, and that's something I really think you should look into. If this information is interesting to you, if you've heard some things tonight that maybe sure on, I'm sure you can ask us some follow up questions, you can try to jump in on the comments at YouTube or social media, but really to get the best, most in-depth thought process going and research and best most up-to-date information you can get from me and our Personal Defense Network team, it's gonna be in that class. It's relatively low cost. So, it'll take you a few hours to go through all the coursework, gain a lot of knowledge. And if nothing else, it's really gonna prompt you to think before you act and maybe have a plan or a script that you can play out. One of the things that you asked Jamie about was the idea of, "I've lost my permit or I left at home." What I do is I photocopy my permits and I keep them in all my vehicles where I've got them like with my insurance card, I've got this so that if I happen to be in the vehicle and I lose my wallet or I didn't get a permit out or something weird has happened and I've got the gun, obviously, if my most likely interaction with law enforcement while armed is the traffic stop, and having that permit or a photocopy of that permit in the vehicle, is a really good idea. I think Jamie's right. I wouldn't wanna leave my only card in the car but having a photocopy of those important documents can help. And if you get that guy who says, "Well, you know what? This isn't the permit you're in violation of law. I'm gonna take your gun," as a police officer, a photocopy of the permit is not your permit, but it's probably gonna get you a lot closer to an amicable resolution and certainly at least at first let the officer have good reason to believe that you are legal, you are acting in good faith even if you're not meeting the specific letter of the law at that moment. I know that in some jurisdictions, if they believe that you legally own the gun but you don't have your permit, even if they look it up and they say, "Yeah, you forgot your permit but you're in violation of law right now because you're not carrying it on your person," they may have you disarm, unload and may disarm you, unload the gun and have you secure the gun in the trunk or in a bag or somewhere outside of your reach because that officer may be in dereliction of their own duty if they knowingly allow you to drive away with a gun concealed, when you're in violation of the state permit law, that says you have to have the permit in order to exercise the carry right. So, understand that there's some nuance there that an individual officer's gonna have to deal with and your behavior and your forethought and your planning is what's gonna make it better for you. Awesome, so, we're at the top of the hour, we're gonna go a little bit over tonight, I hope you guys don't mind. We had a live question come in multiple forms. So, hopefully I can ask it the way our viewers were wondering, but Jamie and Rob, what resource do you use to determine the duty to inform as you travel the country? I think this is coming up in chatter in our window here of, I think people are on the fence of do you have to actually inform the officer that, and again, it's different from state to state, if you have to legally inform but say you don't have to legally inform, what's the duty to inform, I guess is the question. Jamie, do you wanna take a stab at this first to just reemphasize. I know you've touched base a little bit. Yeah, so, I think we're coming back to that idea that if I don't have to, why should I, or do I need to? And again those are two different questions. And what I like to tell people is that regardless of what the statute says, it's still a good idea to do that because it's that good faith advisement. But if you're looking for a staunch absolute in regard to if it is part of the law, state to state, again you're gonna look at those attorney general websites of the states that you're gonna travel through. Because again, when we look at where your permit is reciprocal, a lot of times the piece that people miss to that especially, I can speak to with our Ohio side, now that we've opened up our reciprocity is the fact that usually, in order to have that reciprocity, you're bound by the laws of the state that you're traveling through to get that reciprocity. So, if our state has a duty to inform and your state doesn't and you don't practice that on a regular basis you may actually still be in violation of law even though your permit is reciprocal. And I've got that website up here on the phone. It's the usacarry.com, I think is the one most of us use. And it's got this, like I said, a really cool map. You're just gonna like poke the area that you have your permit in and you're gonna look for the places that you have reciprocity with. You saw it right there, whatever state I hit, first thing it asked me was, am I a resident or a non-resident of that state because it affects how it's gonna read out. And this will give you links to a lot of the state laws as well. But again, if you're getting them off that website, instead of the state website, I don't think it's as compelling. If I'm the officer that pulled you over and I'm not convinced that everything you're saying is exactly true and you hand me some paperwork from the state of Colorado website with a recent date, I'm gonna be much more inclined to just say, "Okay, hey, thanks. I appreciate you informing me and educating me about this situation," as opposed to a website from gun club in Iowa like a chat room where some guy said, "No, no, you're completely legal to do that in Colorado. You'll be fine." That's gonna be less compelling. But that's a great place to start, that USA Carry. Awesome, thank you for doing, can you hold your... Go ahead, sorry, Jamie, go ahead. I just wanna add something to that. Part of the reason I recommend that website and Rob, I know you know this, but just for the viewers, that website references the particular statutes for the state, which if you go there first and you wanna corroborate the information that you find there, can take you directly to the attorney general and you can get that actual statute. So, you don't have to go through those hundreds and hundreds of pages of laws and then you have it straight from the government website and you can use that other one as a resource to take you right there. Yeah, exactly. And this is updated pretty frequently. I don't have this coming up well, but you can see updated on 1/2/17, there's one here that Wisconsin now accepts Virginia licenses issued or renewed after 06/12. So, they get really, really detailed. But again, this gives you what to look for on the government website. I wouldn't take this to the officer and say, "Hey, look at this website, it tells me what I can do." But it definitely informs you of what those laws are and I found it to be a very, very accurate resource. Although, like I said, if I really wanna be able to I'm gonna go to the state website and print those documents out or screenshot them, I mean it's 2017. Screenshot it and you'd be able to show the officer the same way. Can you put your phone up again, Rob, real quick. On the same screen or just like my screensaver? Just your screen. Your phone's not cracked or broken, good job. Please, just stop. That's the only imperative. Sorry, well, I led you right into that one. Okay, so, I started the beginning of this episode with asking both of you your first time dealing with law enforcement while armed. So, let's bring this full circle here. And Jamie, can you tell us the last time that you have had a run-in with the law, even though that you are the law, but last run in while armed with law enforcement? Sure, it was actually on my trip back tonight to see everyone here on PDN. I was going through a construction zone and there was a piece of construction equipment due to the rain, it was partially in the lane, so, I had to make a last minute swerve to go around that which caught the attention of one of my colleagues from the Pennsylvania state police. So, I was able to stop and let him know that from his perspective, he may not be able to see that that orange barrel came out in front of me. And one of the first things that came out of my mouth was not that I was an off duty law enforcement officer but the fact that I do have a firearm in the vehicle, I want you to be aware of that because there was items in there from teaching the class that would have made him immediately aware of that and then I informed him I was a law enforcement officer. It was a very positive interaction once I was able to explain to him why my vehicle took that kind of erratic movement, but so that's very recent. Within a couple of hours. And Ron, what about you? What was your last run-in with law enforcement? Mine was Monday, so, pretty recent, but I got beat by Jamie. Yeah, so, mine was Monday. It was also a traffic situation and same thing, informed the officer. You know, there is a very short interaction kind of about the details of the traffic stop and then before I reached for any paperwork or anything like that, I informed the officer that I was carrying a firearm, that I have a legal permit to do so and also that I'm a reserve deputy here in the state. And his only advice was, "Okay, just do me a favor. Don't reach towards where that firearm is specifically," I'd identified where it was, he said, "Don't reach directly towards it," if I didn't have to, I didn't have to to get the paperwork, came up. So, I find it to be very, very common now to hear officers respond in that way. "Okay, well, just, don't reach towards it and we won't worry about it," which again, kind of where I started, very different than the way a lot of law enforcement officers interacted in the past. Now, when I provide instruction to law enforcement officers and we're doing the officer safety thing or we're talking about interacting with people in general, a conversation that comes up a lot. Obviously any officers that I'm training know that I do a lot of training in the private sector, communicate the Personal Defense Network and a lot of people who are armed for personal defense, not armed professionals and I find them to be much more curious about best practices now that conceal carry is so common as opposed to a, "Oh, I'm a police officer. I know how to handle a guy with a gun." When I went through the academy, the only time we'd talk about dealing with people with guns really was they're bad guys or they're carrying a gun illegally or the gun is potentially a threat to you. And I find that as I travel around the country and interact with law enforcement officers that are getting obviously updates every year and especially the younger officers that have been through the Academy much more recently, I'm finding it that that's not the only part of the conversation. It's not that everyone with a gun is a threat. Sure, they're a potential threat, but I think it's much more common to hear people talk about the fact that there's a lot of armed good guys out there and we don't need to be perceived as harassing them or anything like that. Jamie, what's your take on that? Jamie? Jamie, hello? Jamie, are you there? Oh, no, because we were supposed to end it at Valentine's. Yeah, I think it's because we went over. We've lost Jamie. Jamie was only here for an hour. Union, police union, we had or an hour. All right, well- Jamie, going once, twice, all right, thanks for coming. All right, so, it looks like we lost Jamie's audio, but we're way past the top of the hour anyways. Rob, I know you have one more show and tell with Springfield. I do, people are gonna love this. It's a 1911, it's a 1911 gun. It's Springfield's evolved modern pistol. It's the EMP, is their subcompact nine millimeter. This is the four-inch gun. Everybody knows, including everybody at Springfield knows that I don't recommend 1911s for personal defense but I know a lot of people like them. They're thin, they fit a lot of people's hand. People can shoot them well 'cause they're single-action guns. Really, the only subcompact 1911 type of gun that I've ever seen make it through a class. We've had multiple students come through with the EMPs and they work. There a couple other guns out there that will work sometimes, but the EMP, because it was really designed to be this size, the full-size 1911, I will tell you it wasn't designed to be cut down to a two or three-inch barrel with the 45 rounds or nine millimeter rounds with anything, and they just aren't reliable, they just don't work well. Usually we see those little micro 45 not even make it to lunch on the first day. The EMP is the exception. I still recommend that you look at the XDS or some of the other great guns from Springfield for personal defense, from the modern striker fire line. But the EMP, I wanted to show it off and give it a little bit of props and kudos because Springfield is bringing you the opportunity to see this show tonight. And it is fair that you acknowledge that if you insist on doing the 1911 thing in 2017, the EMP is probably about the best place you could look as far as the compact carry burden. Awesome, and yeah thank you so much Springfield Armory for sponsoring tonight's "PDN Live". Interacting with law enforcement while armed was the topic. We had an awesome guest, Jamie Onion, as well as Rob Pincus. Looks like we lost Jamie's audio, so, Rob, do you wanna do his plugs for him? Jamie, he mentioned it earlier, he does work under ICE Training company's banner. He's actually the program director for our defensive firearms coach program. And he was driving back from a three-day instructor development course in Pennsylvania, that he was doing with Clint Macro and the Trigger Pressers Union there. Clint's been a longtime student. He hosts PDN Training tour classes. He brought Jamie in for a three day, very intense, it's our course that certifies new instructors to teach the fundamentals of concealed carry and the fundamentals of home defense. So, those are both courses that not only get into the physical defensive shooting aspects of training but they also talk about teaching things like the home defense tactics, things like the immediate aftermath of a shooting, interacting with law enforcement while you're armed and the people that graduate from that course successfully then go on to teach the home defense class. Maybe they go on to become combat focused shooting instructors, and they certainly teach a lot of concealed carry permit classes in conjunction with their state rules, and our fundamentals of CCW as a valid course for concealed carry permits in a lot of places. So, Jamie really runs that program, it's something that was near and dear to my heart. We started it up in about 2010 and as the program grew, it became obvious that it needed its own leadership inside of our group and Jamie has stepped up and done a great job with that. He's recruited several other senior instructors to become master-level instructors with him because the PFC program is incredibly fast growing. So, in addition to all his work with law enforcement he's taught with me at the Ohio Tax Officer's Conference. We're gonna be teaching together at the Michigan Tactical Officers' Conference this year, the Great Lakes Tactical Conference. I think he's been down to SWAT Roundup, or at least we've talked about getting him down to SWAT Roundup. So inside of our community, he's done a lot of work, but really on his own, he teaches nonstop inside of Ohio, both on the civilian side and the law enforcement side and for his agency. So, he's a great asset to PDN, appreciate you coming in Jamie. And I know you would have bragged about all that if you had audio but- Awesome and Rob, where can people find you after the show? People can find me after the show, they can't. I'm gonna shut down and take the night off. I gotta travel down to Texas tomorrow. I'm doing a course with Fundamental Defense down there. Aaron Israel is hosting an advanced pistol learning course. I'm gonna fly down to Texas tomorrow, teach Saturday and Sunday, but if people are looking to interact, I will jump on that YouTube channel probably tomorrow morning and follow up. I know Jamie's gonna look at some of the comments as well at the YouTube channel and at personaldefensenetwork.com. This video will be posted to the blog there and we'll be able to interact with people and give them some answers to their questions as followups. All the social media, Rob Pincus, or @pincusrob at Instagram and some other places. Awesome, well, thank you so much guys. And for those of you that are tuned in live, thank you so much for the questions, really appreciate it. Tune in with us next month. In the meantime go ahead and visit us at personaldefensenetwork.com. Facebook at Personal Defense Network P_D_N for Twitter and on Instagram @pdnetwork. And while you're there, subscribe to our newsletter. You'll get all this awesome information there. So, thank you everybody and good night.